{"id":3114,"date":"2024-07-04T05:11:00","date_gmt":"2024-07-04T08:11:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/?p=3114"},"modified":"2026-10-12T16:23:26","modified_gmt":"2026-10-12T19:23:26","slug":"eugenia-mitchelstein-the-future-of-the-digital-environment-is-not-predetermined","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/2024\/07\/04\/eugenia-mitchelstein-the-future-of-the-digital-environment-is-not-predetermined\/","title":{"rendered":"Eugenia Mitchelstein: \u201cThe future of the digital environment is not predetermined\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

By Lucas Malaspina<\/em><\/p>\n\n

Eugenia Mitchelstein is a truly important researcher for us\u2014for those of us interested in communication, politics, and the transformations we are experiencing in this increasingly digitized society.<\/p>\n\n

She holds a bachelor\u2019s degree in political science from the University of Buenos Aires. She then earned a master\u2019s degree from the London School of Economics and Political Science. She also worked as a producer, including for the BBC, before deciding to devote herself to the study of media. She currently directs the Center for Media and Society Studies at the University of San Andr\u00e9s (UdeSA) and earned her Ph.D. from Northwestern University.<\/p>\n\n

Eugenia, I\u2019d like you to tell us about that personal journey. How did that unfold in your life? How did you first become interested in the topics you\u2019ve been researching for some time now?\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

I studied political science, but I also studied journalism at TEA, and by the time I was 20 I knew I wanted to work in media. My first job was at a dot-com that went bankrupt in the crash of 2000. Then I started working as a producer on a political journalism show, Majul\u2019s show, La Cornisa. I was working on Majul\u2019s show; I graduated from TEA, was pursuing my degree at the UBA, and won a scholarship for an internship at the BBC, so I went to London. I thought I would work as a producer all my life; I pictured myself as an executive producer. I probably would not have been able to become one, but at 20 that was how I saw myself. I went to London, and there I ran into someone\u2014a friend I knew from television\u2014and asked her, \u201cWhat are you doing here?\u201d She said, \u201cI\u2019m doing a master\u2019s degree; I won a scholarship.\u201d I said, \u201cOh! Great.\u201d After living in London for a month, I thought, \u201cI\u2019m coming to live in London for a year.\u201d<\/p>\n\n

So, I graduated\u2014I had three courses left\u2014I took them and applied for the scholarship, and I won it; it was called the Chevening Scholarship. And I went to London for a year to do a master\u2019s degree. And there I thought, \u201cWow, this is so great\u2014I\u2019m learning so much, and they\u2019re paying me to study.\u201d I came back and wasn\u2019t quite sure what to do with that. Google had just opened an office in Argentina, so I applied for a job there. I had a thousand interviews\u2014I remember\u2014and I felt like I was going to work at NASA, but then I ended up in a job that was very much in marketing and advertising. I\u2019m not a programmer, so I wouldn\u2019t have been able to code anyway. And while I was working at Google, a professor at San Andr\u00e9s, Hern\u00e1n Galper\u00edn, needed an assistant\u2014someone to teach tutorials. So I started working with him and began teaching classes. I\u2019d never taught before, and I loved it. I told him, \u201cHey, Hern\u00e1n, I want to do this\u2014I want to be a professor.\u201d And he told me, \u201cTo be a professor, you have to get a Ph.D.\u201d So I went ahead and did it\u2014I applied to four Ph.D. programs, which was totally reckless. People usually apply to 15 Ph.D. programs. I applied to four; that was kind of my limit.<\/p>\n\n

I was accepted into three programs; one turned me down. I spoke with Pablo Boczkowski\u2014co-author of \u201cEl entorno digital\u201d\u2014who was teaching at Northwestern, and that\u2019s when I decided to go to Northwestern and start working with him. A Ph.D. program is very much about working with a mentor; you learn a craft. And so, I began to work more seriously\u2014more so than during my master\u2019s program\u2014in academia. I returned and started teaching at San Andr\u00e9s, and in the meantime, I continued doing research. My work consists partly of teaching\u2014mainly at San Andr\u00e9s\u2014and partly of research. So that\u2019s how it went.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

When I was 18, I didn\u2019t even know that social science research existed. My parents were professionals\u2014my dad was an engineer and my mom was a lawyer\u2014but they didn\u2019t work at the university; they worked in companies. So it was a world I knew nothing about. And I didn\u2019t know that such a thing existed at the university either. It wasn\u2019t until I went to London to do my master\u2019s degree that I said to myself, \u201cI can dedicate myself to this.\u201d And after that, I sort of found my way a little bit.<\/p>\n\n

How do you view your time at the University of Buenos Aires, and how do you feel about the criticism the UBA is receiving from the new government?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

My time at the University of Buenos Aires was a very difficult period for the university. As you can see, the university\u2019s budget was very low in the late \u201990s and early 2000s. At one point, Menem even tried to cut the budget even further. We organized protests and stopped attending classes for about a month. So it was a time\u2014I mean, compared to students who started in 2007, 2008, and so on\u2014it was a very difficult time for the university. I remember something similar to what I\u2019ve heard is happening now: professors would tell us how much they earned, and we couldn\u2019t believe how little it was. I don\u2019t remember exactly how much it was, given the inflation at the time, but I do remember that the university was in pretty bad shape. And you could see it in the buildings, too. But something I find interesting is that the UBA functioned\u2014and I think it still does today\u2014as a place where you could meet a lot of different people. A lot of different people in terms of ideology, but also in terms of socioeconomic background. And that opened up a whole new world for me\u2014one I didn\u2019t even know existed.<\/p>\n\n

I went to school in the Belgrano neighborhood; I had spent my entire life in Belgrano, and it was the first time I had ventured outside it a little. Another thing I think is great about the UBA\u2014and I assume this is true of other universities, but I\u2019ll speak about the UBA because it\u2019s the one I know\u2014is that when I went off to do my master\u2019s, I had not been an especially brilliant student. My average was eight; it wasn\u2019t as if I had a 10 average, was the best student, and so on. I was working, so I had very little time to study. I remember arriving in London quite worried: \u201cHow am I going to do a master\u2019s here with all these people?\u201d Very few people are admitted to the program, and very few win the scholarship. And I did really well\u2014not because, again, I\u2019m especially intelligent, but because the education I had received at the UBA allowed me to be on the same level as the other students. They were among the 10% of applicants admitted to that master\u2019s program, just to give you an idea. So they were all very good. And I was a little worried: English isn\u2019t my native language; it isn\u2019t my mother tongue.<\/p>\n\n

And something I\u2019m really grateful to the UBA for is that ability to say:\u00a0 \u201cI have to study; I have to understand this text.\u201d I\u2019d read the original authors\u2014which doesn\u2019t always happen. Often in undergraduate programs in other countries, students read textbooks, but I had read Durkheim\u2014not the textbook that explains what Durkheim thought. And I thought that was great about the UBA\u2014the kind of education it gave me. I have some criticisms, like everyone else, of the degree program\u2014never mind, the curriculum, which I understand has already changed\u2014but I do appreciate that willingness to say: \u201cWell, I have to understand this subject; I have to sit down and read it; I can do it in English, in Spanish,\u201d and so on. That willingness to take on a challenge, so to speak, is what I value about the UBA. Even under very, very difficult circumstances\u2014as I said, financially\u2014because I studied at the UBA from \u201998 to 2003. It was a pretty tough time for the country in general and, obviously, for public universities as well. And I carried that same attitude with me, in a way, when I went on to do my Ph.D.\u2014that willingness to read, understand, and so on.<\/p>\n\n

I remember we had a course called \u201cAmerican Politics,\u201d and no one had read \u201cEl federalista\u201d (a collection of essays written between 1787 and 1788 by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay, under the collective pseudonym \u201cPublius,\u201d with the aim of persuading the citizens of New York State to ratify the United States Constitution), and no one had read \u201cLa democracia en Am\u00e9rica\u201d (Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835)\u2014two books that the UBA simply assigned me to read. I was the only one. And everyone else in the class was American. So that\u2019s something I\u2019m grateful for at the UBA.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

And another thing that really helped me was that I was working in TV, with very irregular hours\u2014I don\u2019t know, sometimes I wouldn\u2019t work on Wednesdays because the show aired\u2026 So, the UBA let me organize my schedule and take classes all day on Wednesdays, Saturday mornings, Thursday nights\u2014you name it.<\/p>\n\n

I must have first read one of your articles\u2014<\/strong>one of those that appeared in Anfibia magazine<\/strong><\/a>\u2014in 2016. And I remember that one of the things that caught my attention most is something also explained in \u201cEl entorno digital,\u201d which you wrote with Pablo Boczkowski: this idea of \u201c<\/strong>Vivir en las redes<\/strong><\/a>.\u201d In other words, it\u2019s not that there is a digital world and a physical or in-person world, but rather that we are immersed in this world, which of course includes the natural and urban environments. We are constantly within the digital world.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

WhatsApp is like a corner store, WhatsApp is like a bar, Facebook is like an avenue, Instagram is like a fashion show.<\/p>\n\n

How did you first engage with the digital world on a personal level, and how did you realize this could be a subject of study?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Those are two separate issues. We had a desktop computer at home\u2014I don\u2019t know, a Pentium, I\u2019d say\u2014but I don\u2019t even remember whether it ran Windows. When I was in my fifth year of secondary school, in \u201997, we connected it via dial-up. I pestered my parents quite a bit; it wasn\u2019t as if they came home one day and said, \u201cWe need to get online.\u201d Not many people were connected, and I thought it was great\u2014I was quite a nerd\u2014that so much information was available. There wasn\u2019t even that much information; we\u2019re talking about the internet in \u201997, but it still felt like a lot. I spent a great deal of time late at night, after my family went to sleep, at the computer searching for things and chatting on ICQ, a messaging platform that I don\u2019t think exists anymore. I was fairly adept\u2014I don\u2019t want to say\u2026 I wasn\u2019t a tech person and didn\u2019t know how to code, but I more or less managed, and I used the internet quite a bit. I used it for university work and so on. That whole world felt natural and appealing to me.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

There\u2019s a quote I really like that goes: \u201cThe technologies that exist from the time you\u2019re born until you\u2019re 10 years old, you consider part of the landscape.\u201d In other words: cars, TV, or color TV, in my case. For me, color TV wasn\u2019t a big deal\u2014it was just there in my house. Technologies that come along between the ages of 10 and 30: \u201cHow cool\u2014I want more of this; I want to see how it works.\u201d Technologies that come along after age 30 are like, \u201cUgh, I have to learn how to use this.\u201d Maybe the cutoff isn\u2019t 30 anymore\u2014maybe it\u2019s 40\u2014but there are things I feel increasingly reluctant to deal with. The internet fit that pattern for me: I got into it at 17 or 18, so it was everything; I thought it was great. But I was studying political science and working in TV.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

The first time I used the internet for work was during the attack on the Twin Towers. We were all at the station; no one really knew what had happened. There were few people, let\u2019s say, on the production team who could read English, so I started checking the New York Times and Washington Post websites to find out what was going on. It was 2001, so these weren\u2019t the online media sites we know today. And that was the first time I used the internet for work\u2014to try to figure out what had happened, pass on information to the show\u2019s host, and so on. That\u2019s when I saw it as a possibility. I kept working in TV, and until I left the industry in 2004, the ratings would arrive the next day by fax.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

I mean, there was internet at the station, there were computers, but the ratings were sent by fax\u2014it was kind of weird. And we had an email address for the show, but nobody checked it; television and the internet were very separate back then. Then I went to do an internship at BBC Mundo, an online site in Spanish\u2014it had a radio station and a website\u2014and that\u2019s when I thought to myself, \u201cThis is great.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

Later, I wrote my undergraduate thesis on electoral debates\u2014in other words, a very traditional political communication topic. When I went to work at Northwestern, Pablo Boczkowski was working on all kinds of internet-related topics. His first book was called \u201cDigitalizar las noticias\u201d (\u201cDigitizing the News<\/a>\u201d, 2004). He invited me to take part in research on the difference between the news people are interested in and the news journalists publish. Clar\u00edn, for example, almost always carries political news, but then the most-read story is about what Wanda Nara said to so-and-so. That book is called \u201cLa brecha de las noticias\u201d<\/a> (2013), and we did the study in many countries, conducted interviews, and so on. At the same time, because I was very active in what we might call the blogosphere, I became interested in the different rules of discussion in newspapers and blogs. So I began interviewing bloggers, editors, newspaper reporters, moderators, and so on. This was in addition to having been an internet user for 10 years\u2014or more, 11 years. And that was how I began studying the subject.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

As for the book \u201cEl entorno digital\u201d, we had already been working on internet-related topics; we wrote several articles with Pablo (Boczkowski) and also with Mora Matassi. We started writing a series of columns for Infobae about the digital world and everyday life, but not with the goal of writing a book. We noticed there was a very dystopian narrative surrounding the digital world and social media\u2014as if all this were going to ruin us\u2014so we said, \u201cWell, let\u2019s see what is known, what this is, and what the people who know and are studying these subjects have to say\u201d\u2014for example, about sexual and romantic relationships or online dating.<\/p>\n\n

And we started writing the columns. By about the eighth one, we thought, \u201cHey, even though the columns cover different subjects, there is a common thread here. It would be good to publish a book.\u201d That was when we conceived the book. But the strangest thing about it is that we wrote the columns in Spanish. We interviewed people in English, and the columns appeared in Spanish in Infobae, but we conceived the book in English. So the book consists of those Spanish-language columns translated into English and revised; we added material, a foreword, and ways of organizing them. Then we translated them back into Spanish so the book could be published in Spanish. Another interesting thing is that literature or research often travels from the United States to here: a book is published in English, and then we read it in Spanish. This one actually traveled in the opposite direction. We did all the research in Spanish. Then we translated it, rethought it, and conceptualized it for the book, and after that we translated it back.<\/p>\n\n

I\u2019d like you to explain some of the ideas you and Pablo Boczkowski present in \u201cEl entorno digital\u201d. One is the concept of totality; another is the concept of duality\u2014I think this is the one that confuses me most or that I find hardest to grasp. And then there are the questions of conflict and indeterminacy, which you present as keys to understanding what happens in the digital environment.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Totality is what you were saying at the beginning\u2014that we live in the digital environment. Not only in the digital environment; there\u2019s also a natural environment and an urban environment, but we live in the digital environment, and the digital environment encompasses every aspect of our lives. Right now it\u2019s pretty obvious\u2014we\u2019re recording a podcast\u2014but think about when you go to buy sneakers and first Google them, or when, for example, a baby is born, and someone is filming or recording the birth, taking photos\u2014which are also digital\u2014and then sharing them on WhatsApp with family and friends. So \u201ctotality\u201d refers to the space that the digital environment occupies in our lives. Even for people who don\u2019t have an internet connection\u2014that is, because they live in very remote areas\u2014the digital world ends up affecting their lives. For example, the digital world often determines commodity prices and what information people should have access to; not being connected to the internet becomes a problem because they lack information they would otherwise have. So the digital world ultimately affects all of humanity, regardless of whether or not they are connected to the internet. In Argentina, internet penetration is roughly 90%, just to give us an idea of what we\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n\n

But even that 10% who are not connected to the internet have their lives touched by the digital world in some way. And that is what totality refers to. We cannot live our lives outside the digital environment. In fact, it is very difficult to live without WhatsApp in Argentina. For almost anything you do\u2014work, family life, organizing\u2014you will need WhatsApp. Mora Matassi, a colleague of mine at San Andr\u00e9s, is writing her thesis on digital disconnection. She says that to live without WhatsApp, you need enough money to pay a secretary\u2014a man or a woman\u2014to manage a WhatsApp account for you.<\/p>\n\n

Of course, that\u2019s why Pergolini can get by without WhatsApp.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Of course, because someone manages that whole part of his life for him. That is what totality refers to.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

As for duality, this is already a concept from sociology\u2014from Giddens\u2014not something we came up with; we took it from Giddens for the book. And Giddens says: \u201cThere is a structure, and that structure affects many aspects of our lives. Structure in the\u2014if you will\u2014Marxist sense, such as modes of production, social organization, and so on. But within that structure, we are agents, and because we are agents, we can gradually change that structure; otherwise, there would be no social change,\u201d following Marx.<\/p>\n\n

In that sense, Giddens is a post-Marxist sociologist. So, we take that notion of the duality between structure and agent\u2014that is, the agent is within the structure, but also produces and reproduces it. The structure does not reproduce itself, and the agent can eventually change it. Obviously, the agent carries out their actions in an environment they do not fully understand\u2014these are the unknown conditions of action\u2014with unexpected consequences. In other words, often the decisions we make as agents do not have the consequences we expect and end up altering the structure, perhaps, but not in the way we intended to do so in the first place.<\/p>\n\n

But that is precisely what the duality of the digital environment refers to. There is a structure in the digital environment that we do not define\u2014we do not define the rules of X-Twitter; those are defined by Elon Musk\u2014but our actions in the digital environment do not make us mere cogs in the machine.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

We make choices; we leave platforms that no longer work for us. One of the most interesting cases for me in recent years is Facebook. At one point Facebook seemed unbeatable. 80% of people had Facebook. You couldn\u2019t live without Facebook. Everyone had Facebook. Facebook determined elections\u2014the whole scandal. People said it determined elections; I don\u2019t believe that, but there was the whole Cambridge Analytica scandal, Brexit, Trump, and so on. And now fewer and fewer people have Facebook. If I ask in my classes whether anyone uses Facebook, they look at me as if I had asked whether they have a black-and-white television at home. Doesn\u2019t that run counter to the whole idea that there was no resisting addictive platforms? In five years\u2014almost six\u2014people abandoned Facebook altogether without any problem, without major consequences for their lives. They are still in the digital environment, but they are no longer on Facebook. That is what duality refers to. There are rules; there is a structure. The decisions we make are obviously not made in a context of our choosing. We did not choose a context in which Mark Zuckerberg owns Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp; through Meta, his company, he is the principal shareholder. But even in that context, we can make choices. For example, some people do not use WhatsApp and use Telegram because they consider it better encrypted, more secure, and so on. Nothing forces us always to follow the structure\u2019s rules. That is duality. Obviously, the fact that we find ourselves in a context and a structure we did not choose, and that we cannot always make or change the rules, leads to conflict. There is conflict between platform users and the platforms. A typical conflict is: \u201cThey took down such-and-such piece of my content. I don\u2019t think it violated the platform\u2019s rules.\u201d But the person who interprets the platform\u2019s rules is the platform moderator, not the user.<\/p>\n\n

And there are also larger-scale conflicts. For example, consider the conflict between TikTok and the U.S. government. The U.S. government says: \u201cTikTok can\u2019t operate here; China has to sell it to an American company. Otherwise, we\u2019ll shut it down,\u201d and TikTok users say: \u201cPlease don\u2019t shut it down.\u201d These conflicts\u2014or conflicts related to platform rules, who owns the platforms, and what content can or cannot be uploaded to the various platforms\u2014are what determine much of what we see, hear, perceive, or read on these platforms. And that conflict means the future is not predetermined, because there\u2019s often a kind of technological determinism\u2014like the idea that platforms are going to kill us all. Or that we give our data to these platforms, which will use them and sell them to corporations, and so on. I\u2019m not saying this isn\u2019t true\u2014we do, in fact, give our data to the platforms. I\u2019m saying that doesn\u2019t necessarily lead to just one outcome.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

And so, since there is both equality and conflict, there is indeterminacy. This indeterminacy also has to do with holding ourselves accountable for what we do in the digital environment in general\u2014not just on platforms.<\/p>\n\n

There\u2019s often this idea: \u201cOh my God, misinformation is spreading.\u201d Well, what are you doing about it? Or something I see a lot now\u2014we almost forget about misinformation. There\u2019s a lot of concern circulating right now about gambling. Like: \u201cOh my God! Gambling\u2014kids are gambling.\u201d What\u2019s going on in the context that leads kids to gamble? Not just in the digital context, but in the context of soccer players, Boca, River, the advertising for betting platforms\u2014the idea that the only thing, or the most important thing, is having money, that money is like a stroke of luck\u2014having money or not having money. And so, there\u2019s something there that we\u2019re not taking responsibility for. I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s okay for 16-year-olds to gamble away their monthly or weekly allowance on bets or get into debt.<\/p>\n\n

Or their grandmother\u2019s or grandfather\u2019s pension.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

No, that\u2019s obviously not okay. But there is also something I think we need to take responsibility for and consider: What about betting sites? I don\u2019t think the responsibility lies with the digital environment\u2014maybe partly\u2014but also, I don\u2019t know, I\u2019m going to say something that pains me because I really like \u201cEl Dibu\u201d Mart\u00ednez: he promotes betting sites. He could choose not to. It\u2019s not as though his ability to feed his son and daughter were at stake. So there is something there, not to mention that a betting platform has an agreement with the AFA. One might think that perhaps we could have another sponsor\u2014I don\u2019t know\u2014one that does not have kids gambling away their grandfather\u2019s pension or their allowance to make a buck.<\/p>\n\n

As for the City Government, it recently introduced a series of restrictive measures, yet at one point it also authorized betting sites to operate. So now, after the damage was done, restrictions are being proposed. The damage could occur because there had first been an authorization.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Yes, in any case, I find the City Government\u2019s decision interesting\u2014it\u2019s going to be very unpopular with students in general. There\u2019s going to be a conflict there, because students like to gamble; kids who go to school like to gamble, and taking that access away from them\u2014I think it\u2019s going to be complicated. So, it seems to me that in that sense, the City Government is at least saying, \u201cWell, there\u2019s a problem here; let\u2019s do something about it.\u201d It\u2019s not like they\u2019re saying, \u201cNo, we can\u2019t do anything. No, well, that\u2019s it\u2014these kids are already addicted to gambling; that\u2019s it\u2014we\u2019ve lost them.\u201d<\/p>\n\n

It seems to me that Jorge Macri is making a decision regarding something that many people say: \u201cNo, well, that\u2019s it\u2014these kids are a lost cause.\u201d So, even though one might say, \u201cIt\u2019s too late, it\u2019s not enough, the damage is already done,\u201d this decision speaks to an agenda that, in many cases, I don\u2019t see being pursued. For example, in the case of the AFA. No one is asking, \u201cCan\u2019t we get another sponsor?\u201d It\u2019s not as if the Argentine national team is doing so poorly that no one wants to sponsor it.<\/p>\n\n

And I saw the other day that V\u00e9lez, a soccer club, had a deal with a betting company\u2014its logo was down there\u2014and now it has another sponsor. Obviously, that alone does not make the difference. I think there should be a general agreement\u2014V\u00e9lez is a big club, though not the biggest\u2014to say: \u201cLet\u2019s not have clubs, governments, or players promote gambling; let\u2019s treat gambling like cigarettes.\u201d No one has a cigarette sponsor on their jersey. Cigarettes are not illegal: you can go out, buy them, and smoke them, but it is frowned upon. And I think that is the shift we need to make.<\/p>\n\n

When you framed this book as a counterpoint to a certain negative technological determinism, it was interesting because that pessimism actually arose in response to an initial optimism. And that is one of the things I value most about the book: the way it raises this question of indeterminacy. In other words, in the book you set out the emancipatory possibilities that sometimes exist within platforms.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

How do you view what you wrote at the time about politics in the book, in light of the changes we\u2019re seeing with a figure like the current president?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

It seems to me that one aspect of the book regarding politics is that the people we interviewed for the political section spoke a lot about the internet as a tool to do what they were already doing\u2014such as microtargeting voters and identifying who was eligible to vote.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

In the United States especially\u2014and this is different in Argentina\u2014to win an election, you have to mobilize the people who would vote for you and demobilize those who would vote for the other side. In Argentina, because voting is compulsory, it works differently. And the most interesting thing about the Milei phenomenon\u2014which I do not attribute to social media\u2014is that Milei became famous on television. I heard Mart\u00edn Becerra and Santiago Marino make this point. Milei became famous on Intratables because he was friends with the channel\u2019s owner, which is very vintage if you think about it. Intratables began inviting him because he worked as an economist for the owner, or one of the owners, of the channel. Those clips often made their way onto social media. Milei is a Twitter user\u2014he was a Twitter user\u2014but he was not a Twitter superstar either.<\/p>\n\n

And I think it is easier, or more parsimonious, to explain Milei\u2019s election through the economic context in which it took place and the fact that many voters were deeply disappointed with the Frente de Todos and also with Macrism. One might think: \u201cWell, Massa is not going to win under these circumstances.\u201d From a political science perspective, it was impossible for Massa to win with that level of inflation, which is a fairly decisive factor in elections. Why did the main opposition not win? Because it had governed until four years earlier. Many voters were very disappointed with that too. So thinking of Milei as a solely digital phenomenon overlooks above all the economic context and the disillusionment with institutions that formed the backdrop to his election as president. All of that is reflected in the digital sphere. The digital sphere\u2014the people who began following Milei, and so on\u2014reflects a frustration that is not digital: money buys less and less because of inflation and a host of decisions and, I think, because of Milei\u2019s campaign as well. In 2015 and 2019, much of the concern about fake news was that it would make us believe things that were not true.<\/p>\n\n

And then you see artificial intelligence: the images of Milei created with generative AI. None seeks to be credible, none seeks to be plausible, and none is trying to convince you of anything. Milei is a lion in the AI images, but no one believes Milei is a lion. It is not as if people think, \u201cNo, Milei is actually a lion disguised as a human.\u201d The images are more expressive, more aspirational\u2014not aspirational in a socioeconomic sense, but in the sense of: \u201cThis is how I would like to see politics, or how I would like things to be.\u201d Milei as a lion, the Banda Argentina, protection against the deficit\u2014all of these are completely fantastical images. What we had normally said was that artificial intelligence would be used to make you believe that, I don\u2019t know, Massa is a bad person, that he hits his children, or whatever. That is not what happened.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

Artificial intelligence in Argentine politics is currently being used primarily as a means of expression, so that people can express what they imagine, what they see\u2014I don\u2019t know, \u201cthe duck and the lion hugging,\u201d things like that. And so, what we see in Milei\u2019s digital sphere reflects, to some extent, what\u2019s happening in the urban sphere regarding Milei and in the media sphere in general regarding Milei.<\/p>\n\n

But it seems to me that the explanation that it was social media is an intellectually vague one\u2014vague in the sense that it doesn\u2019t require much thought. I think Milei\u2019s rise has to do with a lot of people being very angry with the major parties and traditional politicians.<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: I started thinking about the class you taught in the FLACSO graduate program. One point you raised was fear as a positive motivator in Hobbes\u2019s \u201cEl Leviat\u00e1n,\u201d and you connected it with the growth of anger on platforms: the intersection of bubbles that reveals a meeting point in heightened positions on either side and generates fear. I see a connection there between fear, anger, and what the vote for Milei reflects. One side\u2014or both\u2014experiences fear as a motivator and also finds a response in anger. How would you construct that connection?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

But let me ask you a question. Would you say they receive it through social media, or that they experience that fear and anger, and that fear is reflected in their social media posts?<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: I see it as a whole. I mean, they receive it through social media\u2014depending on which group is represented\u2014but they receive it on social media just as they receive it in the natural environment.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

But let me remind you of something that happened in Argentina in 2020. There was a pandemic, and a lot of people like me were able to work from home. A lot of people still had to go out to work because they were doctors, garbage collectors, or supermarket cashiers, and a lot of people lost their jobs. They simply lost them. They worked at a restaurant or in a store, the business went bankrupt, and so on. And the government told them: \u201cThis is important, stay home, we\u2019re taking care of each other,\u201d and so on, \u201cwe\u2019re going to give you…\u201d I don\u2019t remember what the program was called, but it was much less than what those people earned at their jobs\u2014jobs that, we assume, they enjoyed, found fulfilling, and were motivated to do. \u201cStay home; we\u2019re going to give you a lot less money,\u201d and so on. And people put up with that, because one thing that must be said is that for quite some time, Argentina\u2019s quarantine was observed with great sacrifice. And that\u2019s the best-case scenario; in the worst-case scenario, they cordoned off Villa Azul in Quilmes. The best-case scenario was: \u201cPlease, stay home.\u201d<\/p>\n\n

The worst-case scenario was being arrested for going out in your car. A woman was found dead in a police station in San Luis. All of this happened in Argentina in 2020. All that tension: stay at home. I understand that it happened in other countries too, but this happened in Argentina. Shortly afterward\u2014toward the end of that year\u2014you learned that vaccines had arrived and had been given to some people close to the president, Verbitsky among them. Verbitsky is not generally a popular or beloved figure. It is not as if people say, \u201cNo, Verbitsky\u2014like Maradona\u2014had to get one.\u201d No, he is not Messi.<\/p>\n\n

Few people know him, and those who do do not say, \u201cHonestly, every day I think how lucky we are that Verbitsky exists.\u201d I have read his books, and I think he is an interesting, intelligent person, and so on, but it is not as if you could say the vaccine went to a popular idol. Verbitsky, Gin\u00e9s Gonz\u00e1lez Garc\u00eda, Duhalde, and so on. And shortly afterward, you learned that while you had been staying home at great personal cost\u2014perhaps your grandmother died and you could not attend the funeral, you had countless problems, you had no money, and so on\u2014the president\u2019s girlfriend or partner held a little birthday party with a fairly large group of people at Olivos. Was that anger caused by social media, or by the year and a half of hardship you endured while the government was literally at a birthday party?<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: Over the years, various events\u2014the lack of a political response, the problems we\u2019ve faced as a country\u2014have built up that anger. There\u2019s a channel for expression in the digital sphere that actually exacerbates this sentiment, which isn\u2019t visible on the streets. Now we\u2019re witnessing milestones that are moving in that direction, but there is a certain impunity in the anonymity that social media creates. Basically, I think of Twitter as this sort of safe haven for channeling a very strong buildup of anger toward anyone you have in front of you, no matter who they are or whether they even exist.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

But do you use Twitter that way?<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: No, no. I don\u2019t use it that way, but I do see it, because I\u2019m a heavy Twitter user, and I observe it\u2014and I find the forum within Twitter that operates that way entertaining. And I laugh along with it, too, right?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

How many people use Twitter in Argentina? Roughly speaking, give me a number.<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: 11%.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

A little more\u201416%, 17%. Do you think that determines the election?<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: No, definitely not.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

No, and so, yes, I think, as you say, that anger is expressed on social media and is sometimes expressed in an exaggerated way. But I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what caused the Milei phenomenon. I think it\u2019s general anger that\u2019s being expressed through social media.<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: In fact, there was a lot of talk about a masterful strategic management of social media. I do not see a dazzling strategy, for example, on TikTok. I think it was more a movement that transcended those environments and had an impact in its own right. The results are plain to see, just as it is very difficult to quantify how much a digital campaign can contribute in actual votes. What it did was not like Marcos Pe\u00f1a inaugurating a new cycle of communication in this country.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Still, Marcos Pe\u00f1a is overestimated too. I mean, in that sense, he also\u2026 After 12 years of Kirchnerism and four years without economic growth, it was quite likely that the opposition would win. But I find this question of expression, expression on Twitter, and how it entertains us interesting as well.<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: Yes, without a doubt. Twitter is undoubtedly the inner circle of politics, and people with medium-to-high levels of political engagement use that platform to stay informed. I think you recently tweeted something about how 11% of people get their news from Twitter, and that ultimately everything is more concentrated on Infobae, followed by WhatsApp and Facebook. But there is a certain perception or understanding in political circles that agenda-setting begins on Twitter, as if the conversation starts there and then spreads to the other platforms or to different kinds of media diets. Is there something to that, or not?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

I think there\u2019s something to that. It would be worth studying further. In that sense, we could examine how agendas emerge on different platforms. Let\u2019s think of online newspapers as a platform too, and then how they spill over onto Twitter. It also seems to me that since each platform has its own rules and, in general, people prefer one platform over another, I\u2019m going to take a guess. Don\u2019t you use TikTok much?<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: Yes, I do. I use it in moderation because there comes a point where time really loses all meaning, and you\u2019ve spent two and a half hours just doing this.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Doesn\u2019t that happen to you on Twitter?<\/p>\n\n

Iv\u00e1n Sverdlick: Yes, it happens to me on Twitter too, but I feel less guilty about it. I feel like it\u2019s more productive, somehow.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

I feel like people think the agenda is set wherever they see it, but maybe it was already circulating on TikTok before that, or it was circulating on WhatsApp\u2014in WhatsApp groups\u2014even before that. Let me give you an example. The other day, a researcher who studies this topic\u2014libertarians, and so on\u2014mentioned many massive WhatsApp groups. She said, \u201cA lot of the things you see on Twitter a day later, I saw them first in WhatsApp groups.\u201d So, I think it would be interesting\u2014though it\u2019s very difficult to study WhatsApp in the sense that you have to have access to the groups, see how many groups there are, and so on. We need to consider whether the agenda is set on Twitter or on WhatsApp. What I\u2019m almost certain of is that it isn\u2019t set in traditional media. But I wouldn\u2019t say it\u2019s set solely on Twitter. Since there\u2019s something there that requires looking at all platforms, it can be studied\u2014it\u2019s not impossible. And above all, we need to see where the topics appear first.<\/p>\n\n

Lucas Malaspina: We have a president who\u2019s very active on Twitter. And he\u2019s able to set the agenda. Many of his posts end up sparking reactions both in the media and on other platforms, as well as among other political figures, generating conversation around them. Public discourse also begins to shift based on those two factors.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

He\u2019s not the first president to be active on Twitter. Alberto Fern\u00e1ndez was, too. They reined Alberto in a bit. They reined him in, but at one point he was wishing people success on their exams.<\/p>\n\n

Lucas Malaspina: During the pandemic, at two in the morning\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Yeah, yeah. I wonder, how long is this going to last\u2014this whole thing where we\u2019re paying attention to Milei? I\u2019ll confess something to you: I don\u2019t follow Milei on social media, but looking at his profile, he posts way too much. I can\u2019t keep up with what that guy says\u2014he tweets too much, retweets too much. I wonder how long this is going to last. In the sense that if things go well for him, it\u2019ll surely last a long time, and he\u2019ll be re-elected in 2027; if things go badly, it\u2019ll be like Alberto at the end of his term\u2014no one knew what he was doing, and no one cared either, let\u2019s be honest.<\/p>\n\n

It\u2019s not hard for the president to set the agenda. Adorni sets the agenda too, and he doesn\u2019t do it on Twitter.<\/p>\n\n

Lucas Malaspina: Yes, perhaps what\u2019s interesting is the different way he uses it. This issue\u2014perhaps in terms of coordination\u2014in the Cambiemos administration, whenever there was a controversial topic, official actors would step back and unofficial actors would step in to challenge the opposition\u2019s arguments\u2014which at that time were primarily those of Kirchnerism. Now, it seems as though that line has been erased\u2014there are no longer unofficial and official actors playing distinct roles in the drama unfolding on Twitter. But beyond that, it seems to me that there\u2019s a sense that they\u2019re different\u2014that is, there are multiple agendas running simultaneously, overlapping in a rather chaotic situation that\u2019s very difficult to make sense of.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

I like the idea of multiple simultaneous agendas\u2014perhaps on the same topics, perhaps on different ones. Some people are thinking right now about the Copa Am\u00e9rica and whether Messi is going to play. I\u2019m telling you, that is all they are thinking about. It is not a criticism; other people are thinking about when Dillom\u2019s next concert is. So there are multiple agendas. In the past, traditional media may have brought them together: a newspaper had politics, entertainment, sports, and you could leaf through it. Now you can choose only what you want to consume, whether that is movies, music, or soccer. There is also this idea that print newspapers used to set the agenda. But ask any of us here, \u201cWhat was on Clar\u00edn\u2019s front page today?\u201d Nobody knows. Nobody knows. I ask my students, \u201cWhat did today\u2019s newspaper front page say?\u201d They answer: \u201cFront page? Newspaper? Print?\u201d \u201cNo, we don\u2019t buy one at home; it is as if it doesn\u2019t exist.\u201d So the saying or myth that three negative Clar\u00edn front pages could bring down a government would simply make us laugh now.<\/p>\n\n

And what I am saying goes back 15 years. Now it would be funny. Clar\u00edn\u2019s front page\u2014who looks at it? Nobody. Perhaps the people who put Clar\u00edn and other newspapers together look at it, and the government looks at it, but that will not define public opinion. Whether it ever did is another discussion. So I like the idea of multiple agendas, and I really like this idea of Twitter not only as a place to express anger but also as a place to have fun, because otherwise we generally emphasize the negative. I have many students\u2014and I use the feminine form because they are women\u2014who tell us: \u201cI want to write my thesis on how Instagram causes eating disorders.\u201d I do not know whether Instagram causes, reflects, or encourages eating disorders; there is a whole debate about that. But there is also a whole other part of Instagram where people say that it helps you understand why you are the way you are or portrays the human figure more realistically, and so on. I feel there is a tendency to focus on the negative aspects of social media and pay very little attention to what we do there for fun, which might even include tweets from, I don\u2019t know, a Trump supporter or Gordo Dan.<\/p>\n\n

And if that\u2019s what entertains you, then that\u2019s what entertains you. I feel like there\u2019s this idea of saying, \u201cI feel guilty about it\u201d\u2014that guilty pleasure. Why do you feel guilty? I mean, there are people who watch five soccer games a day on the weekend because the Copa Am\u00e9rica is on. And they don\u2019t say, \u201cI feel guilty\u201d; they say, \u201cYeah, great, I watched five soccer games.\u201d There\u2019s nothing inherently better about watching Turkey vs. Austria than spending an hour or an hour and a half on TikTok, if TikTok is fun for you.<\/p>\n\n

Lucas Malaspina: What matters here is the narrative each person constructs about themselves from what they are watching.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Watching Wimbledon is not better than watching TikTok. But no one says, \u201cNo, I watched a tennis match\u2014what a drag, four hours, a tiebreak, the whole thing\u2014I really wasted my time.\u201d And you tell me, \u201cI feel guilty about spending two hours on TikTok.\u201d I am not saying it is wrong for you to feel guilty; I am saying I am interested in how we moralize our\u2026 I do not want to call it only consumption. The other day I heard something I liked: \u201cDrugs are consumed. Television is watched; TikTok is watched.\u201d Or perhaps you are a TikToker and create TikToks. There is this idea of platforms as a guilty pleasure\u2014or not even that, but a kind of guilty displeasure: I have a bad time and yet I stay there. Well, go do something else, I don\u2019t know. And if you like it, you like it.<\/p>\n\n

Yeah, plus the idea of consumption is very passive too, isn\u2019t it?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Yes, totally, totally. That is why drugs are consumed. On social media, especially Twitter, we do other things that are not just the passive consumption of a substance or content. So, in that sense, I want to try to strip moral judgment from our digital practices and our passage through the digital environment. There is nothing better about watching The Sopranos than watching 25,000 TikTok clips, if those 25,000 TikTok clips entertain you.<\/p>\n\n

I think we place a lot of emphasis on disconnection,\u00a0 guided by the idea that disconnection is a positive value\u2014which, for me, it is. And I think the book also makes that point to some extent: that we need to teach children the value of disconnection, that connection is not the only value we should emphasize. But, as you said earlier, there is also a question of power: who can disconnect and who cannot, although that may not be true in every case.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

I would value agency more than disconnection: being able to decide to read a book at night. Do you want to read a book at night? If the book appeals to you, great. I would strip away the \u201cit makes me more productive\u201d part, or the moralizing part, because not everything in life is about productivity. If you enjoy watching TikToks of Dillom singing, that part of your life does not have to be productive. If you feel you are consuming content\u2014again, not consuming, but accessing content\u2014that is bad for you or makes you nervous, and so on, then that is a personal decision.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t watch horror movies because they affect me very badly. That is a decision I made, but I do not think horror movies are bad; I think it has to do with how I react to them. There used to be a whole moralizing discourse around this\u2014you are all very young, but when I was a girl television was called \u201cthe idiot box.\u201d My father would not let me watch television, much less soap operas, because he said soap operas filled my brain with nonsense.<\/p>\n\n

So I used to watch soap operas in secret. I would go to a friend\u2019s house to watch Andrea del Boca\u2019s soap operas because I was not allowed to at home. There was an entire moralization of television content that no longer exists. Today nobody says, \u201cHey, how can you watch that Turkish soap opera? It\u2019s garbage.\u201d I find it interesting how this passes from one medium to another. At one point reading books was considered dangerous; then came radio, then television, and now the internet. There is almost always this idea that it makes you less productive, that you should be doing something else, or that it would be better to do something else. I would ask: What do you like to do? I would take the ought<\/em> out of it.<\/p>\n\n

How do traditional media outlets, which have to keep adapting, coexist with this? These days, there\u2019s hardly anyone who hasn\u2019t done a live stream. There\u2019s a much more constant, intense community-building process with frequent dialogue. What paths can they chart? If there are any at all.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

I think for now they target different niches. The person who puts on Gelatina at ten in the morning is not the person who puts on \u201cArriba Argentinos\u201d at ten in the morning; they are different niches. As for the paywall\u2014mind you, Clar\u00edn has 700,000 subscribers and La Naci\u00f3n has 400,000. So in some cases I would say it works and in others it does not; that happens all over the world, where generally there is one winner who takes all and others who do not. What I find interesting is that neither Clar\u00edn nor La Naci\u00f3n has a stream. They could have one. La Naci\u00f3n has La Naci\u00f3n+, but that is not a stream. Clar\u00edn has TN, but that is not a stream either; it is traditional television. Neither says, \u201cWell, let\u2019s put some journalists here to tell you what is going on.\u201d<\/p>\n\n

No one is talking to the chat.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Of course, nobody looks at the chat. They\u2019re looking at the ratings, in fact. If you go to La Naci\u00f3n+, they\u2019re looking at the ratings. The screens show the news and the ratings. And so, it seems to me that for now they\u2019re targeting different niches, different audiences. You ask me: \u201cWill they ever target the same audience?\u201d I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t see it happening\u2014it\u2019s kind of like the difference between radio and TV. My grandmother kept turning on the radio her whole life whenever she was at home. She never said, \u201cNo, I\u2019m going to switch it off; I\u2019m going to watch TV\u2014I prefer TV.\u201d And radio still exists\u2014well, it\u2019s reinventing itself, actually. And it seems to me that what I see so far with television\u2014though I have to admit I watch very little TV\u2014is that it operates on a different logic than streaming, which is, as you say, no one looks at the chat, no one talks to the audience, they have very little interaction with listeners, users, or viewers, and they assume that\u2019s what their audience prefers\u2014a more passive consumption of information than on streaming platforms. Because on streaming platforms, if you don\u2019t look at the chat, you kind of miss everything; you can\u2019t really just have it playing in the background\u2014it\u2019s kind of weird, and so on.<\/p>\n\n

In any case, it\u2019s all audiovisual entertainment. I mean, whether it\u2019s on a computer, on TV, online, or on cable\u2014it\u2019s all audiovisual entertainment. And what I believe is that we\u2019re seeing variations of audiovisual entertainment\u2014different variations. TV in the 1950s was very similar to radio\u2014not fiction TV, but news TV, like a person delivering the news like that. And then they realized, \u201cWe have more options; let\u2019s add more things to it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n

In fact, Neustadt was the first to stand up and deliver an opinion column.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Right. So I think it is interesting to consider what streams take from television. Sometimes, on a stream, they are talking about a clip, about something that happened, and I shout, \u201cPlay the clip!\u201d They do not play it; they assume everyone saw it. \u201cPlay the clip!\u201d They do not. At some point you would think they would say, \u201cHey, we are broadcasting on YouTube; let\u2019s play the clip we are discussing so everyone knows what we are talking about\u201d\u2014or not. But on television, when they say, \u201cMilei\u00a0 responded to so-and-so,\u201d they say, \u201cOkay, now let\u2019s show the Milei clip, and then we will discuss it.\u201d I feel that streams are still at the stage where they say, \u201cOh, look, there are cameras, and we can talk, and people can see us.\u201d<\/p>\n\n

There is something about streams and new media that, to me, somewhat reconceptualizes how things work: they take a much more 360-degree approach. A medium built around community-building also moves beyond the traditional environment, not only through live conversation with the community but by suddenly holding in-person events. Gelatina, for example, organizes Orcos An\u00f3nimos, which consists of talks.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

But television already did that. Think about it: I don\u2019t know, Si lo sabe, cante would suddenly go to a public square. There was the idea of leaving the studio and even of showing backstage; Olmedo showed backstage. I feel that streams are constantly saying, \u201cWhat we are doing is so crazy.\u201d Yes, it is not bad, but it is not the first time it has been done.<\/p>\n\n

Sure, the thing is, maybe it\u2019s the first time you\u2019re doing it.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Sure, it\u2019s not the first time audiovisual entertainment has been produced in Argentina. Yeah, I think one real break is direct contact with the audience.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

I had read a column comparing streams with Pol\u00e9mica en el bar, but Sofovich did not care at all what the person watching Pol\u00e9mica en el bar thought. Each person had a character, more or less: the fat guy, the Peronist, the smooth one, and so on. It seems to me that streams have a great deal of connection with the audience. Chats create a different way of thinking, and I believe that is where the change lies\u2014in that sense or in that space. That is also where listener loyalty lies. They do not tune in to the stream to find out what happened; every so often, they get a news item.<\/p>\n\n

Yes, they borrowed a great deal. Yayo, who is now on OLGA too. Right. Rebord does some rather ShowMatch-like things; Blender too.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

But it is more like being part of a community\u2014a community of people who leave their opinions, post, laugh, respond to prompts, and do all the different things people do in a stream\u2019s chat. I find it very difficult to follow because it moves so fast, and so on. That still does not exist on television. Will they incorporate it? I do not think so. I do not think so because, on top of that, there is no control in a stream, if you think about it\u2014I don\u2019t know how to put it. Whoever is there comments on what they see.<\/p>\n\n

You can\u2019t filter the comments.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Of course, you can’t filter the comment. So, on TV, I don\u2019t know how that would work. Do you remember when Baby Etchecopar had a show with an open mic and people would call in and sometimes insult him? Well, sometimes on TV, people react like, \u201cNo way, man, how can that be?\u201d But on a stream, well, it\u2019s okay\u2014it\u2019s just part of it.<\/p>\n\n

What\u2019s more, there\u2019s something reality-show-like about streaming\u2014it feels more organic and genuine as it unfolds.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

And they even joke about it, saying things like: \u201cNow we are going to create a romantic connection between him and her.\u201d On television, of course there was\u2014I am not saying it was real\u2014a fiction of sexual tension between Cristina and Rodolfo on Telefe. But nobody said, \u201cHey, now we are going to create this fiction so people will believe it\u201d; if it happened, it happened. Here it is all very transparent, very reality-TV-like. \u201cWe are going to make it look as if these two actually like each other.\u201d \u201cPeople want us to\u2026\u201d \u201cYes, they do; let\u2019s stage it.\u201d That greater transparency is where I think it breaks with television\u2014more than in staging events or showing backstage.<\/p>\n\n

Can you recommend something for us to check out next?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n

Mora Matassi and Pablo Boczkowski published a book about platforms called \u201cConocer es comparar\u201d, which is about understanding the different platforms and social media, and I highly recommend it.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

From a political science perspective, I recommend a book called \u201cC\u00f3mo mueren las democracias\u201d, which I think can tell us a great deal about what is happening not only in Argentina, nor even primarily in Argentina, but throughout the world: in the United States, France, Europe, Brazil, and so on.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

And I am now reading a history book called \u201cEl queso y los gusanos. El cosmos seg\u00fan un molinero del siglo XVI\u201d (Carlo Ginzburg, 1976).<\/p>\n\n

Just recently, I saw<\/strong> an interview with its author in Nueva Sociedad conducted by Mariano Schuster.\u00a0<\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n\n

Yes, great. I read that interview and decided to look for the book. I\u2019m on that kick too: I\u2019m going to read books\u2014not on a Kindle. Books on paper.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n

<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

By Lucas Malaspina Eugenia Mitchelstein is a truly important researcher for us\u2014for those of us interested in communication, politics, and the transformations we are experiencing in this increasingly digitized society. She holds a bachelor\u2019s degree in political science from the University of Buenos Aires. 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With a bachelor\u2019s degree in Communication Sciences and a master\u2019s degree in Culture and Communication from the University of\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ShilaVilker.webp?fit=1024%2C599&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ShilaVilker.webp?fit=1024%2C599&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ShilaVilker.webp?fit=1024%2C599&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/ShilaVilker.webp?fit=1024%2C599&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":3230,"url":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/2024\/11\/11\/mariana-gene-political-operators-milei-democracy\/","url_meta":{"origin":3114,"position":1},"title":"Mariana Gen\u00e9: \u201cWhat it takes to be a political operator is one thing; what it takes to be president is another\u201d","author":"lucasmalaspina","date":"11 de November de 2024","format":false,"excerpt":"Mariana Gen\u00e9: \u201cWhat it takes to be a political operator is one thing; what it takes to be president is another\u201d By Lucas Malaspina Mariana Gen\u00e9 is a political sociologist and CONICET researcher who teaches at both undergraduate and graduate levels at the IDAES School of the National University of\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/Mariana-Gene.webp?fit=950%2C512&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/Mariana-Gene.webp?fit=950%2C512&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/Mariana-Gene.webp?fit=950%2C512&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/06\/Mariana-Gene.webp?fit=950%2C512&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":3077,"url":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/2024\/09\/27\/daniela-barbieri-a-presidential-debate-lasts-as-long-as-what-circulates-after-the-debate\/","url_meta":{"origin":3114,"position":2},"title":"Daniela Barbieri: \u201cA presidential debate lasts as long as what circulates after it\u201d","author":"lucasmalaspina","date":"27 de September de 2024","format":false,"excerpt":"We spoke with sociologist and consultant Daniela Barbieri about the work of Pulsar UBA, the impact of presidential debates, shifts in presidential approval ratings, and the role of research in political communication. Today we\u2019re joined by Daniela Barbieri, a sociologist from the University of Buenos Aires with a master\u2019s degree\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/10\/XWN22BUUVREPTGFWL5YMPSL6PI.jpeg?fit=350%2C232&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":3080,"url":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/2024\/09\/18\/natalia-aruguete-agenda-setting-social-media-polarization-milei\/","url_meta":{"origin":3114,"position":3},"title":"Natalia Aruguete: \u201cThe levels of self-censorship in the face of Milei are highly systematic\u201d","author":"lucasmalaspina","date":"18 de September de 2024","format":false,"excerpt":"The first time I saw her was in 2017, during a graduate program at\u00a0FLACSO, and I was impressed by her knowledge and teaching style. Natalia Aruguete is a researcher at CONICET, holds a Ph.D. in Social Sciences from the National University of Quilmes\u2014where she also teaches\u2014and is a professor at\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Captura-de-pantalla-2026-04-13-a-las-0.37.16.png?fit=1200%2C780&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Captura-de-pantalla-2026-04-13-a-las-0.37.16.png?fit=1200%2C780&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Captura-de-pantalla-2026-04-13-a-las-0.37.16.png?fit=1200%2C780&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Captura-de-pantalla-2026-04-13-a-las-0.37.16.png?fit=1200%2C780&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Captura-de-pantalla-2026-04-13-a-las-0.37.16.png?fit=1200%2C780&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]},{"id":3125,"url":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/2024\/05\/31\/mayors-and-municipalities-under-milei-austerity\/","url_meta":{"origin":3114,"position":4},"title":"Mayors and Municipalities Under Austerity: The Milei Era (Fernanda Veggetti\u2019s Perspective)","author":"lucasmalaspina","date":"31 de May de 2024","format":false,"excerpt":"Fernanda Veggetti, a political consultant, discusses here the mayors and municipalities facing austerity measures in Argentina in 2024. This excerpt is taken from a broader conversation that took place on my YouTube show \u201cSin pauta\u201d after I learned about her work in the book \u201cAcciones para una buena comunicaci\u00f3n de\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/05\/representa-un-municipio-de-150-000-habitantes-del-interior-de-la-3.png?fit=1024%2C768&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/05\/representa-un-municipio-de-150-000-habitantes-del-interior-de-la-3.png?fit=1024%2C768&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/05\/representa-un-municipio-de-150-000-habitantes-del-interior-de-la-3.png?fit=1024%2C768&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/05\/representa-un-municipio-de-150-000-habitantes-del-interior-de-la-3.png?fit=1024%2C768&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":3096,"url":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/2024\/08\/21\/facundo-nejamkis-peronism-milei-public-opinion\/","url_meta":{"origin":3114,"position":5},"title":"Facundo Nejamkis: \u201cPeronism outmaneuvered renewal\u201d","author":"lucasmalaspina","date":"21 de August de 2024","format":false,"excerpt":"Facundo Nejamkis holds a degree in political science from the University of Buenos Aires and a master\u2019s degree in Administration and Public Policy from the University of San Andr\u00e9s. He is the director of Opina Argentina, a consulting firm specializing in public opinion surveys; a professor and researcher at CONICET;\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Facundo-Nejamkis.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Facundo-Nejamkis.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Facundo-Nejamkis.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Facundo-Nejamkis.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2026\/04\/Facundo-Nejamkis.png?fit=1200%2C675&ssl=1&resize=1050%2C600 3x"},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/lucasmalaspina.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/mitchelstein.jpg?fit=900%2C1600&ssl=1","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3114","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/103004725"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3114"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3114\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":3116,"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3114\/revisions\/3116"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/3115"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3114"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3114"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/lucasmalaspina.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3114"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}